[also posted to meta@lists.tildeverse.org, but it is offline]

Hello, all.

If you have not seem my BBJ message in the
"[STICKY] mailing lists" topic, I am again trying to get the
Tildeverse mailing lists on Gmane[1]. But this time, I
should like to have them registered in a tidy and uniform
manner, under a common namespace:

gmane.tildeverse.<list>

so the effort must be coordinated between the administration
of <https://lists.tildeverse.org/>, the administration of
Gmane, and (perhaps) the community of each individal lists,
to let them opt-out of Gmane integration if they object.

Once we establish a list of mailing lists that desire to
appear on Gmane, we can bring it up with the Gmane
adminstration. What are your thoughts?
_______________________
1. <nntp:news.gmane.io>
<http://gmane.io>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmane>
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

Currently I cannot even access the MLs via WWW.

Were all MLs readable for everyone even without account? That was what
I wanted to look up when the ML manager turned out not to respond any
more.

If they were world readable, I see don't see any impact of making them accessible via Gmane worldwide. Writing still would need being a
registered user. So why should one ask all users of all MLs in this
case. I just couldn't verify the world readable assumption due to the
ML manager being unresponsive currently (tested from tilde.institute and @home).
--
thejuicemedia / 20260907
Honest Government Ad
Bulls*it™
<https://youtu.be/4IW1J2_masg>
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

Currently I cannot even access the MLs via WWW.

Were all MLs readable for everyone even without account? That was what
I wanted to look up when the ML manager turned out not to respond any
more.

If they were world readable, I don't see any impact of making them
accessible via Gmane worldwide. Writing still would need being a
registered user. So why should one ask all users of all MLs in this
case. I just couldn't verify the world readable assumption due to the
ML manager being unresponsive currently (tested from tilde.institute and @home).
--
thejuicemedia / 20260907
Honest Government Ad
Bulls*it™
<https://youtu.be/4IW1J2_masg>
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

yeti:

Were all MLs readable for everyone even without account?

Yes, although I *hate* that new /modern/ web-interface,
provided by the new Python-based Mailman3!

If they were world readable, I don't see any impact of
making them accessible via Gmane worldwide.

Nor do I, yet /some/ mailing lists have been known to reject
Gmane integration, but I think those lists accepted anonymous
posts.

Writing still would need being a registered user.

Yes, if the lists do not accept anonymous posts.

So why should one ask all users of all MLs in this case.

Hmmm, not much reason to ask this, indeed. But we
(including the individual lists) should still have to agree
upon a common naming scheme in Gmane, unless the admin of <lists.tildeverse.org> pulls rank on it.
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

yeti:

If they were world readable, I don't see any impact of
making them accessible via Gmane worldwide. Writing still
would need being a registered user. So why should one ask
all users of all MLs in this case.

One reason is that at least one mailing listsis already
registered on Gmane: the tilde.team list is available there
as gmane.os.unix.tildeteam -- a very bad group address IMHO,
which will have to be re-registered as gmane.tildeverse.
tildeteam or gmane.pubnix.tildeteam (depending on which
scheme we choose). Similarly, the tilde.club list, before
it disappeared, was available as gmane.org.clubs.tilde --
also a silly name.

Perhaps gmane.punix.* is the better choice because some
tilde may create their mailing lists before joining
Tildeverse.org, and those lists need not be hosted at
<lists.tildeverse.org/> ?
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

ant <ant@tilde.club> writes:

One reason is that at least one mailing listsis already
registered on Gmane: the tilde.team list is available there
as gmane.os.unix.tildeteam -- a very bad group address IMHO,
which will have to be re-registered as gmane.tildeverse.
tildeteam or gmane.pubnix.tildeteam (depending on which
scheme we choose). Similarly, the tilde.club list, before
it disappeared, was available as gmane.org.clubs.tilde --
also a silly name.

Perhaps gmane.punix.* is the better choice because some
tilde may create their mailing lists before joining
Tildeverse.org, and those lists need not be hosted at
<lists.tildeverse.org/> ?

I would argue for gmane.pubnix.* as the hierarchy, as there are many
pubnixes which aren't under the tildeverse banner. I'm not aware of any
that have public mailing lists, but it would be a shame to be stuck with
a poor name. The examples you mention here are caution enough that we
should be careful with naming.

--
luna
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

luna:

ant:

Perhaps gmane.punix.* is the better choice because some
tilde may create their mailing lists before joining
Tildeverse.org, and those lists need not be hosted at <lists.tildeverse.org/> ?

I would argue for gmane.pubnix.* as the hierarchy, as
there are many pubnixes which aren't under the tildeverse
banner. I'm not aware of any that have public mailing
lists, but it would be a shame to be stuck with a poor
name.

OK, I don't mind this either, but then I think we should
/not/ make it gmane.pubnix.tildeverse.* either. preferring
a flatter hierarchy.

When Ben has finished restoring <lists.tildeverse.org/> and
can take a calm breath or two, we shall bring it up with
him, and he having no objections, I'll contact Gmane on
behalf of all of us. It may not be easy, however, as Lars
does not answer in gmane.discuss regularly. He also insists
on silly group names, so I will need help of a convincing
crew :-)

We should start with moving
gmane.os.unix.tildeteam to gmane.pubnix.tildeteam .
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

When Ben has finished restoring <lists.tildeverse.org/> and
can take a calm breath or two, we shall bring it up with
him, and he having no objections, I'll contact Gmane on
behalf of all of us.

I really love this plan. Good name choice too.
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

ant <ant@tilde.club> wrote:

We should start with moving
gmane.os.unix.tildeteam to gmane.pubnix.tildeteam .

Maybe the ML manager allows aliasing ML names?

Or Gmane itself?

A changes proof naming will not be easy to chisel. Systems may join or
leave the Tildeverse and *.pubnix.$NAME may look strange if the reader
expects $NAME to be the name of a pubnix instead of the list. So no
matter how its done, allowing lists to be renamed somewhen may some day
be the last fallback. Better lats think about this without a hurry.

*sigh!*
--
1. Hitchhiker 25: (82) "Bloody hell," said Majikthise, "now that is what
I call thinking. Here Vroomfondel, why do we never think of things like
that?" (83) "Dunno," said Vroomfondel in an awed whisper, "think our
brains must be too highly trained Majikthise."
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

yeti:

We should start with moving gmane.os.unix.tildeteam
to gmane.pubnix.tildeteam .

Maybe the ML manager allows aliasing ML names?

It won't help without the assistance of the Gmane admin.
As far as I have understood, he does not like the
botheration of renaming the newsgroups for already
registered mailing lists.

Or Gmane itself?

See above. Better not to count on it, and start from
the best possible scheme, because it may be our last :-)

A changes proof naming will not be easy to chisel.

English parsing error. Is it a bug in my parser?

Systems may join or leave the Tildeverse and
*.pubnix.$NAME may look strange if the reader expects
$NAME to be the name of a pubnix instead of the list.

If the pubnix has one mailing list, I think it is the
preferred scheme. If the pubnix has several mailing
lists, then I think it should be either of

gmane.pubnix.$NAME.$MLNAME
gmane.pubnix.$NAME-$MLNAME

which brings up the problem of adding a second mailing
list :-)

So no matter how its done, allowing lists to be
renamed somewhen may some day be the last fallback.
Better lats think about this without a hurry.

I agree, but I should be happy even we simply manage to
register the Tildeverse mailing lists with Gmane, let
alone using a uniform naming scheme.
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ant <ant@tilde.club> writes:

I'll contact Gmane on behalf of all of us.

You may contact Gmane (I am neutral on this), although not in my name (I
am against using my name for this).


Cheers,

=2D-=20
A little Consideration, a little Thought for Others, makes
all the difference. ~ Alan Alexander Milne

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keyboardan to ant:

I'll contact Gmane on behalf of all of us.

You may contact Gmane (I am neutral on this), although
not in my name (I am against using my name for this).

Of course. I did not mean any impropriety, such as
listing the names of users endorsing my request.
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

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ant <ant@tilde.club> writes:

keyboardan to ant:

I'll contact Gmane on behalf of all of us.

You may contact Gmane (I am neutral on this), although
not in my name (I am against using my name for this).

Of course. I did not mean any impropriety, such as
listing the names of users endorsing my request.

Okay.

You did said 'on behalf of *us*'. Best to talk just in your name, and
that you had a discussion on tilde.club about this issue.


Cheers for Freedom,

=2D-=20
A little Consideration, a little Thought for Others, makes
all the difference. ~ Alan Alexander Milne

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keyboardan:

ant:

I did not mean any impropriety, such as listing the
names of users endorsing my request.

You did said 'on behalf of *us*'. Best to talk just
in your name, and that you had a discussion on
tilde.club about this issue.

If I do so, the administrator will hardly give much
weight to a request from a random user to reorganize the
entire namespace, unless it be PGP-signed with every
user's id :-) Such a request should come from the
community as whole and represent the consensus within
that community. How do I express it?
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ant <ant@tilde.club> writes:

keyboardan:

ant:

I did not mean any impropriety, such as listing the
names of users endorsing my request.

You did said 'on behalf of *us*'. Best to talk just
in your name, and that you had a discussion on
tilde.club about this issue.

If I do so, the administrator will hardly give much
weight to a request from a random user to reorganize the
entire namespace, unless it be PGP-signed with every
user's id :-) Such a request should come from the
community as whole and represent the consensus within
that community. How do I express it?

I would go about talking to deepend about this and asking if deepend
would make that contact saying that that you wish.

I feel like a user representing the whole community is not proper.
Unless is deepend.

The LibrePGP signing would be a good idea, if only tilde.club community
members start using gpg, and learn using it. I already know.


Cheers for Freedom,

=2D-=20
A little Consideration, a little Thought for Others, makes
all the difference. ~ Alan Alexander Milne

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keyboardan:

ant:

Such a request should come from the community as
whole and represent the consensus within that
community.

I would go about talking to deepend about this and
asking if deepend would make that contact saying that
that you wish.

I feel like a user representing the whole community is
not proper. Unless is deepend.

I agree that our representative should possess some
sort of authority and trust, in order to make that
request on Gmane. I should rather prefer that that
user be Ben, the maintainer of <lists.tildeverse.org/>,
because it concerns not Tilde.club alone but all
participants of the Tildeverse.

What shall we do if Ben is to busy to bother with
posting this request on

<nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.discuss>

or is simply indifferent to it?

the administrator will hardly give much weight to a
request from a random user to reorganize the entire
namespace, unless it be PGP-signed with every user's
id :-)

The LibrePGP signing would be a good idea, if only
tilde.club community members start using gpg, and
learn using it. I already know.

If GnuPG counts, then I am in. My key is in the
Tilde.club WKS and this message is signed with it.
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I wrote:

My key is in the Tilde.club WKS and this message is
signed with it.

No, it isn't it. This one is, however.

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ant <ant@tilde.club> writes:

keyboardan:

ant:

Such a request should come from the community as
whole and represent the consensus within that
community.

I would go about talking to deepend about this and
asking if deepend would make that contact saying that
that you wish.

I feel like a user representing the whole community is
not proper. Unless is deepend.

I agree that our representative should possess some
sort of authority and trust, in order to make that
request on Gmane. I should rather prefer that that
user be Ben, the maintainer of <lists.tildeverse.org/>,
because it concerns not Tilde.club alone but all
participants of the Tildeverse.

I feel like Ben is also a person fit for that task...

What shall we do if Ben is to busy to bother with
posting this request on

<nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.discuss>

or is simply indifferent to it?

Ask politely, and report to us the status of this job, here. Tell Ben
we are having discussion in here. We'll figure out, if necessary.

the administrator will hardly give much weight to a
request from a random user to reorganize the entire
namespace, unless it be PGP-signed with every user's
id :-)

The LibrePGP signing would be a good idea, if only
tilde.club community members start using gpg, and
learn using it. I already know.

If GnuPG counts, then I am in. My key is in the
Tilde.club WKS and this message is signed with it.

Hihihi.

I already have your elliptic curving key lsign'ed, in here ;-D .


Cheers for Freedom,

=2D-=20
A little Consideration, a little Thought for Others, makes
all the difference. ~ Alan Alexander Milne

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keyboardan:

ant:

What shall we do if Ben is to busy to bother with
posting this request on
<nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.discuss>

or is simply indifferent to it?

Ask politely, and report to us the status of this job,
here. Tell Ben we are having discussion in here.
We'll figure out, if necessary.

I had written to him on September the 9th. No reply
so far. I think we should not bother him again until
Tilde.team is up and running.

Hihihi.

I already have your elliptic curving key lsign'ed, in
here ;-D .

Glad to join the 'ncrypted club.

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